Forum Discussion, First Attempt.
I would like to do something a little bit different here. If you read our blog on any sort of a regular basis, I want to propose a question. But before I ask it, I want you to commit to praying for a while before you respond. And make sure that your response is biblical, and is not taken out of context. If you have time to do this, I think there could be great fruit from the discussion. Please keep the discussion civil, do not use ad hominem or straw-man reasoning either please. Wikipedia is a great resource if you are not sure what those words mean. Also keep in mind that I am fairly confident, at this point, only believers frequent this site. So there is peace in knowing that this is an in-house discussion, but please do not use that as license to get frustrated.
O.K. here is the question: What is legalism? As it pertains to Christianity!
Please remember to keep your responses based on scripture as much as possible. If a side-topic comes up as a result, I will determine if it is worth pursuing in another thread, but please keep it as focused on the topic as possible. And Austin, you cannot reply first 
.
The person who responds with the best biblical definition, and I have one in mind, I will send a book of my choosing. I will wait a few weeks before deciding, based on when the discussion fizzles out. And Austin can’t win…sorry bro. If noone defines it as well as I am hoping then the book will go to the individual who contributes the best overall to the structure of the discussion.
One last thought, we are all on equal ground, for “God accepts no mans person.” Galatians 2:6
Someone needs to start giving Jeremy a run for his money…hint hint. I will let the thread go for about another week and then we will wrap it up as far as the “competition,” goes.
Did I mention how much I really love books?
I’m heading to P-town in a few minutes, gonna see if Ang will let me talk her into a “quick” trip to Powells after Ikea…it will take some leg twisting though I am sure.
Hot tip #347
Wives that love Jesus encourage book reading!
This one’s on the house!
Jeremiah – Sorry I’m late to the party. I just wanted to let you know that I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion and I look forward to joining your discussion board when you get it up and running.
I read on another blog a statement that I feel sums up “legalism” as is currently (re)defined by the liberal church. The statement (paraphrased, and I’m sorry that I don’t remember the author) is that “people get very upset when you chase their golden calves out of the barn”. This seems to be a good description; I have had more than a few run-ins with people who call me a “legalist” because I dare to point out that they are clinging to their lives in the world, instead of repenting of cherished sins and clinging to the Lord.
If I may reply to something that Tom Huntford said; “Americans, including most who call themselves Christians, are allergic to authority.” Well said, sir, you hit the nail on right on the head! I had a discussion recently with a pastor that ended with him calling me “legalistic” because he insisted that Romans 13:4 gives Christians license to disobey the authorities that God appoints (if we feel that they are “immoral”), and I refused to compromise my position that Romans 13:4 DOES NOT give us that “right”. This pastor would rather be in rebellion against authority, and by definition, God Himself, than submit himself to the word of God.
It’s been my experience that whenever a Christian uses the term “legalistic” as a perjorative toward you, it means that they no longer have any excuses to defend their sinful behavior, and they just want you to shut up and go away, because you are making their head (and conscience) hurt.
This bothers me a little: “…a discussion recently with a pastor that ended with him calling me “legalistic” because he insisted that Romans 13:4 gives Christians license to disobey the authorities that God appoints (if we feel that they are “immoral”), and I refused to compromise my position that Romans 13:4 DOES NOT give us that “right”. This pastor would rather be in rebellion against authority, and by definition, God Himself, than submit himself to the word of God.”
I wonder…would God rather us obey authority if they are going directly against God. How far do we take this? The husband is the head of the house and how many pastors tell a wife in an abusive situation (and abuse is NOT Just physical) that they must honor him and stick it through because he’s the authority and divorce will put you in danger of hell fire. And so a woman lives in a literal hell because she’s afraid of going to an eternal hell if she tries to escape.
I wonder if this pastor was indeed in rebellion against authority (and in your opinion God) or simply saw that sometimes there is a point where you must stand up to authority when evil is occurring. I don’t know. I wasn’t there.
I don’t agree that “…WHENEVER a Christian uses the term
“legalistic” as a perjorative toward you, it means that they no longer have any excuses to defend their sinful behavior, and they just want you to shut up and go away, because you are making their head (and conscience) hurt.”
That implies it’s ALWAYS the case. And it’s not.
I actually would not mind, when we get our discussion forum running, to have a discussion about submission to governments. In some ways this topic is going to become one of the penultimate issues facing our western generation if things keep going the way they are. But that whole issue is a discussion as big as the cascade mountain range, and also one that I have spent a lot of time pondering and reconciling with scripture. So give us a while and we will allow everyone to hammer that out. For now though I do not want to touch that with a ten foot pole.
Thank you though MarkC for your contribution. I think that statement about chasing the golden calves out of the barn is hilarious. It is not always a “whenever” issue like Mark Melton rebutted, but I do think it is true often enough to warrant serious concern, however you did say that it was common in your experience. Which is one of the reasons I started this thread. I think we use the term in an non biblical fashion all the time. So I sympathize with the sentiment.
I would however need Austin’s approval before we tackled that issue.
Mark Melton – Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. There are two instances where Christians must disobey the governing authorities:
1) when government compels Christians to sin against God;
2) when government prohibits Christians from proclaiming the gospel.
Mr. Melton, since God established all authority (including political authority), when we rebel against those who God placed into authority, we rebel against God. That’s not my opinion, that’s Romans 13:1-2. And God makes no guarantees of the “goodness” or “morality” of those He raises as leaders! If you don’t believe that, read the book of Judges. Thanks for the straw-man argument about the abusive spouse, always a pleasure to see non-related examples thrown out as “proof” that I’m wrong!
Jeremiah, there’s one other point I need to clarify… Whenever a LIBERAL Christian uses the term “legalistic” as a perjorative toward you, it means that they no longer have any excuses to defend their sinful behavior, and they just want you to shut up and go away, because you are making their head (and conscience) hurt. And in my experience that is always the case when dealing with liberals.
Sorry, Jeremiah, I know this is way off topic, but I feel the following distinctions need to be made:
A political liberal believes the American constitution is a living document that is open to re-interpretation; a political conservative does not.
A liberal Christian believes the Bible is open to re-interpretation; a conservative Christian does not.
I’ll drop this now; hopefully you will have your message board up and running soon, and we can continue this over there!
LOL!
Withstanding temptation to defend myself on the starwman statement.
So I humbly concede.
Shazzzam…I gotta say, I even made the rule and I did not even notice it…what Kind of moderator am I? Sorry Mark…Straw Men are the siren songs of discussion. Thank you for the Clarification MarkC I look forward to the discussion…Thanks again for everyone’s contributions so far. It has been a good conversation, I will try to rev the engine again a bit tomorrow night. Sundays are incredibly busy days for me and by the time the evening rolls around I feel rather useless in the noodle.
Sorry, the meeting I had to go to tonight went way longer than I anticipated, my brain is like tapioca at the moment. May the Lord bless all of your days tomorrow. I will have to ask me last few questions then. Lord Bless.
Finally, here is my last question as it pertains to completion of the project, but by no means completion of the topic if anyone wants to resume it.
If you had to pick one word to describe how Abraham’s faith physically manifested itself, what would it be? In other words, what was the result of his faith?
I think I understand our question but am not 100%. You might be looking for another angle but as far as Abe’s reward for faith. The word I would choose is “fellowship”.
Abraham was called by God, his friend. (Is 41:8) The reward was the friendship he developed with God by learning to trust His heart. Without faith it is “IMPOSSIBLE” to please Him.
I no longer care what angle I had in my mind…as simple as the response was Jeremy…Your answer may take me days to recover from…
I’m still chewing on it myself. Thanks for the invite, this has been a fruitful discussion.
Years and years ago, the statement that Abraham was the Friend of God meant absolutely nothing to me in any real sense. I have thought long and hard about Abraham over the last year, and now, after all my thinking and meditation, this was just the thing I needed to add to my understanding. I asked a question with the intent to teach, only to find that I still had to learn. Jeremy, your book is coming in the mail as we speak, it probably won’t be here before the weekend though.
WoooooHooooo!
Your book got here last night bro.
Hi, I have no clue what the discussion is about. But I just wanted to say hi.
Hi!
TAK!!!